You are so kind, Kim. I believe in Maya Angelou's sage advice: When someone shows you who they are, believe them...the first time. It sounds to me like the mother (sister) has raised her children/young adults to have relationships they way she does, at least with Trying Hard. Showing no appreciation for the loan is a sign. She didn't see it as help. It was an expectation: You have what I need; give it to me. Any parent who doesn't teach their kids to send thank-you notes is a narcissist or jerk (I was never taught to send thank-you notes -- hi, mom! -- I now have a collection of them on hand and take a card with me when I am a guest to leave behind for my host to find when I'm gone). All the signs of the one-way street are there. Trying Hard can definitely have the conversation, with an open mind and heart, and I hope it works out for all of them. In my experience, the thought of even having such a conversation is an affront to those types. They are perfect and right and you are a selfish, needy complainer if you expect anything more from them. Or at least that's my mother and her mother and brothers and yeah. That's fun. As for the loan, if it was given as a loan, the sister should pay it back (she won't). Always always always put that in writing so it's clear. (Trust me from my lesson learned.) Some of us are willing to give money we can't afford to lose to help someone we care about. That's not attaching strings; that's math! But I've learned to stop giving gifts to those who don't acknowledge them. I don't expect a parade or a written note, or even a "thanks". But it sucks to have to ask, "Did you receive that?" (Because the mail service ain't what it used to be.) The few people I've stopped giving to are the sister's kind. They expect something from everybody, yet rarely give to anyone. (Let me tell you the story of a guy I know who went to a neighbor who's retired and asked her to throw his 50th. And, no, he wasn't going to chip in. And, yes, he makes a fortune.) We have to learn to see people as they are, not how we want or hope for them to be. That doesn't mean we need to cut them off or ice them out, but to not have expectations that are going to end in disappointment. We were taught to treat people the way we want to be treated (especially as women), but that sets up the expectation our gestures will be reciprocated. They may not. Set boundaries instead. xo
This is such a juicy one because we do get so bound up in expectations around giving and reciprocity, and wanting to be a part of each other's lives but then not knowing how to be there for someone, or getting caught up in our own immediate family drama, and not wanting to burden the rest of your family with it or feeling embarrassed by it. I love the steps/script you laid out... so common sense... I want to print them and stick them up on my fridge for my next difficult conversation. As I age, I keep coming back to the fact that try as we might, we often have to detach from outcome and leave the light on for the person we love.
I have a longer version of the "masterful conversations" printed out and handy. I used it at work countless times for the difficult conversations. It works like a hot damn. I think detaching from outcome has been the biggest lesson I've had to learn over these last few years. It's a tough one for us type A overachiever's isn't it?
I read your thoughts Kim and feel you've made a number of very good points. Unable to make a decent argument against any of them, I still have concerns. The sibling without the "kids, is entering this interaction from a point of a strategic disadvantage but moral high ground. She's trying, but the unappreciative sister can, and is likely to just say - "Nope, I'm not interested." After all, she's getting some satisfaction out of being in control here.
Neither she nor her kids seem to have learned much about gratitude, compassion or communication. I personally would consider another approach to START the conversation going. Though the crappy relationship is no doubt hurting all four of the relatives, only one is acknowledging it and willing to make any sacrifice at this point. But that could change as the emotions and maybe some tears flow. Having no credentials to back up my suggestion, I would consider the following.
I would be tempted to use her favorite form of communication and in essence offer to be a punching bag.
Something like - "Sis, I know we don't have a good relationship. My sense is that I must have done something to hurt you. We both carry the weight of that and we're not getting younger. PLEASE LET ME HAVE IT! (they're only words we're talking here, right?) Let me know what I've done so we can start to make things better. I promise not to say a word until you're ready either today or sometime over the next few days." At that point, I would kindly explain the "other side of the story."
My only goal with this approach would be to let her vent, in a completely unchallenged environment. Like with all estranged relationship, things could go from bad to worse. My hunch is that the sister has a fragile ego which is why she'd just rather avoid the confrontation. BTW, I would NOT offer myself as a punching bag beyond the point where she's vented. Since her sister's a poor communicator or has major ego issues, respectful listening and open-ended questions could go a long way toward moving forward. Then I would consider following with Kim's suggestions.
Oy. That option sounds too hard core for me! I don't know if I'd ever knowingly say to anyone anymore, "Let me have it!" Been there, done that. But, I do agree with the allowing to vent part, which is in part the last part of the conversation advice which is to listen. No matter what she decides to say--venting or otherwise. Isn't it fun being an armchair therapist?! So many options.
Hi Kim. I knew as I wrote it that the approach wasn't for the faint of heart. I also don't know that I would offer to be the verbal punching bag in many other circumstances unless I had so much to lose otherwise. Since the withdrawn sister emanates self-centeredness, I don't know that she'd ever want to willingly get in a fight. She's already won from her selfish perspective. She's got the kids, and her loving sister doesn't.
IF, something was keeping me awake at night AND I thought it was the only way to get her to reveal the REAL issue, I just might go there.
I was a voluntary community mediator for years and so many times the main culprit in discord was reluctant to let go of their underlying agenda- though given the right opportunity, it might come to the surface. Without free reins, they just might dance around the real issue, and the mediation would go nowhere. It takes a lot of open-ended questions and uninterrupted listening.
Great advice. I have a family member who will use her gifts against me if we ever argue even though I’ve given to her as well. Giving is a choice. The key is not expecting anything in return.
Seems to me, this true life drama is a lot about intentions. What do you want to have happen and how do you let them know that without laying a guilt trip on them? Yes, it's partly about expectations, both yours and theirs, but it's much more than that. What is not being said or heard that needs to have a voice - on both sides? Family relationships and dynamics are tricky because they are loaded with emotions, some held, swallowed and suppressed, and others either leaking out or exploding because of unresolved issues. Getting honest and straight with people who might be less interested in exploring some of the causes behind and underneath the behaviors sare among life's challenges in families who have some ingrained patterns acquired over the years. Doesn't mean we quit trying unless we have exhausted what we believe are possibilities for greater understanding and appreciation.
Excellent advice. I have a family member who normally doesn't acknowledge gifts or things I've done for them, but that's just the way they are! They show me love in other ways and that's just fine. As you said, giving from the heart means you don't expect anything in return. It shouldn't be transactional. I learned that the hard way - my narcissistic mother and wasband both expected love to be "repaid" in some way. Ugh.
I learned that from my mom and I'm afraid I put an undue burden on my kids when they were younger. I'm glad I figured it out before I did too much damage!
You are so kind, Kim. I believe in Maya Angelou's sage advice: When someone shows you who they are, believe them...the first time. It sounds to me like the mother (sister) has raised her children/young adults to have relationships they way she does, at least with Trying Hard. Showing no appreciation for the loan is a sign. She didn't see it as help. It was an expectation: You have what I need; give it to me. Any parent who doesn't teach their kids to send thank-you notes is a narcissist or jerk (I was never taught to send thank-you notes -- hi, mom! -- I now have a collection of them on hand and take a card with me when I am a guest to leave behind for my host to find when I'm gone). All the signs of the one-way street are there. Trying Hard can definitely have the conversation, with an open mind and heart, and I hope it works out for all of them. In my experience, the thought of even having such a conversation is an affront to those types. They are perfect and right and you are a selfish, needy complainer if you expect anything more from them. Or at least that's my mother and her mother and brothers and yeah. That's fun. As for the loan, if it was given as a loan, the sister should pay it back (she won't). Always always always put that in writing so it's clear. (Trust me from my lesson learned.) Some of us are willing to give money we can't afford to lose to help someone we care about. That's not attaching strings; that's math! But I've learned to stop giving gifts to those who don't acknowledge them. I don't expect a parade or a written note, or even a "thanks". But it sucks to have to ask, "Did you receive that?" (Because the mail service ain't what it used to be.) The few people I've stopped giving to are the sister's kind. They expect something from everybody, yet rarely give to anyone. (Let me tell you the story of a guy I know who went to a neighbor who's retired and asked her to throw his 50th. And, no, he wasn't going to chip in. And, yes, he makes a fortune.) We have to learn to see people as they are, not how we want or hope for them to be. That doesn't mean we need to cut them off or ice them out, but to not have expectations that are going to end in disappointment. We were taught to treat people the way we want to be treated (especially as women), but that sets up the expectation our gestures will be reciprocated. They may not. Set boundaries instead. xo
Thanks for this Sandra. More great insight and wisdom! Always delivered with a dash of humour too! xo
This is such a juicy one because we do get so bound up in expectations around giving and reciprocity, and wanting to be a part of each other's lives but then not knowing how to be there for someone, or getting caught up in our own immediate family drama, and not wanting to burden the rest of your family with it or feeling embarrassed by it. I love the steps/script you laid out... so common sense... I want to print them and stick them up on my fridge for my next difficult conversation. As I age, I keep coming back to the fact that try as we might, we often have to detach from outcome and leave the light on for the person we love.
I have a longer version of the "masterful conversations" printed out and handy. I used it at work countless times for the difficult conversations. It works like a hot damn. I think detaching from outcome has been the biggest lesson I've had to learn over these last few years. It's a tough one for us type A overachiever's isn't it?
I read your thoughts Kim and feel you've made a number of very good points. Unable to make a decent argument against any of them, I still have concerns. The sibling without the "kids, is entering this interaction from a point of a strategic disadvantage but moral high ground. She's trying, but the unappreciative sister can, and is likely to just say - "Nope, I'm not interested." After all, she's getting some satisfaction out of being in control here.
Neither she nor her kids seem to have learned much about gratitude, compassion or communication. I personally would consider another approach to START the conversation going. Though the crappy relationship is no doubt hurting all four of the relatives, only one is acknowledging it and willing to make any sacrifice at this point. But that could change as the emotions and maybe some tears flow. Having no credentials to back up my suggestion, I would consider the following.
I would be tempted to use her favorite form of communication and in essence offer to be a punching bag.
Something like - "Sis, I know we don't have a good relationship. My sense is that I must have done something to hurt you. We both carry the weight of that and we're not getting younger. PLEASE LET ME HAVE IT! (they're only words we're talking here, right?) Let me know what I've done so we can start to make things better. I promise not to say a word until you're ready either today or sometime over the next few days." At that point, I would kindly explain the "other side of the story."
My only goal with this approach would be to let her vent, in a completely unchallenged environment. Like with all estranged relationship, things could go from bad to worse. My hunch is that the sister has a fragile ego which is why she'd just rather avoid the confrontation. BTW, I would NOT offer myself as a punching bag beyond the point where she's vented. Since her sister's a poor communicator or has major ego issues, respectful listening and open-ended questions could go a long way toward moving forward. Then I would consider following with Kim's suggestions.
Oy. That option sounds too hard core for me! I don't know if I'd ever knowingly say to anyone anymore, "Let me have it!" Been there, done that. But, I do agree with the allowing to vent part, which is in part the last part of the conversation advice which is to listen. No matter what she decides to say--venting or otherwise. Isn't it fun being an armchair therapist?! So many options.
Hi Kim. I knew as I wrote it that the approach wasn't for the faint of heart. I also don't know that I would offer to be the verbal punching bag in many other circumstances unless I had so much to lose otherwise. Since the withdrawn sister emanates self-centeredness, I don't know that she'd ever want to willingly get in a fight. She's already won from her selfish perspective. She's got the kids, and her loving sister doesn't.
IF, something was keeping me awake at night AND I thought it was the only way to get her to reveal the REAL issue, I just might go there.
I was a voluntary community mediator for years and so many times the main culprit in discord was reluctant to let go of their underlying agenda- though given the right opportunity, it might come to the surface. Without free reins, they just might dance around the real issue, and the mediation would go nowhere. It takes a lot of open-ended questions and uninterrupted listening.
Great advice. I have a family member who will use her gifts against me if we ever argue even though I’ve given to her as well. Giving is a choice. The key is not expecting anything in return.
Seems to me, this true life drama is a lot about intentions. What do you want to have happen and how do you let them know that without laying a guilt trip on them? Yes, it's partly about expectations, both yours and theirs, but it's much more than that. What is not being said or heard that needs to have a voice - on both sides? Family relationships and dynamics are tricky because they are loaded with emotions, some held, swallowed and suppressed, and others either leaking out or exploding because of unresolved issues. Getting honest and straight with people who might be less interested in exploring some of the causes behind and underneath the behaviors sare among life's challenges in families who have some ingrained patterns acquired over the years. Doesn't mean we quit trying unless we have exhausted what we believe are possibilities for greater understanding and appreciation.
Excellent advice. I have a family member who normally doesn't acknowledge gifts or things I've done for them, but that's just the way they are! They show me love in other ways and that's just fine. As you said, giving from the heart means you don't expect anything in return. It shouldn't be transactional. I learned that the hard way - my narcissistic mother and wasband both expected love to be "repaid" in some way. Ugh.
I learned that from my mom and I'm afraid I put an undue burden on my kids when they were younger. I'm glad I figured it out before I did too much damage!